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View Full Version : NSA wire taps, are we being watched ???


spoonInspoon
05-12-2006, 04:34 AM
Ok, i wouldn't have even started this thread if it wasn't for the fact that we as Americans had no idea that the government/NSA was conducting very large amounts of wire taps all across the world...The simple question is; why would the government not tell us they were doing this ?. I would completly go along with it if in fact the reason was because the threat of Al queida, but why weren't we told?.If anything you would think they would tell us so they could avoid any "false accusations" on this matter. I think in turn it would also Prevent terroism activity a great deal. by that i mean i think if they knew they were being monitored through wire taps they would most likely back down from planning anything in the first place. It doesn't make sense to me at all. I think everyone in this country should have been aware of this without question.Or is "Big Brother" watching us and using "The Patriot act" as a scape goat?.It may sound rediculous but thats just me. Its questionable though especially in times like these

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords/index.html
(http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/05/11/nsa.phonerecords/index.html)

MODERATOR... PLEASE MOVE ME TO NDMB OR NEWS. MY BAD,SORRY

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 08:07 AM
hmm, this doesnt seem like a fun game...

wire tapping is a gross violation of our civil liberties as americans. the fact that now the government can monitor us with the myriad cameras there are evrywhere, our library history (thank you patriot act) and now in our own home is not only atrocious, its terrifying. i feel like im in an orwellina nightmare--its crazy. i realize that my hour long conversations with my friends on the phone are probably not being listened to, but the fact that they have the ability, and that they have even stored thousands or even millions of phone records from ordinary americans is disgusting. where does it stop? when are the men in dark black suits going to come to my house and stick cameras in every corner of my humble abode? many will laugh this off as crazy, but the snowball effect has begun. the government has taken one snowflake, and sent it on a collision course with the botton of a very steep mountain. the NSA wire tapping is an abomination. ben franklin once said "He who sacrifices freedom for security deserves neither". well folks, freedom is slowly melting away like the glaciers of the arctic (but thats a seperate issue).

now, can we get a mod to move this?:lol:

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 08:48 AM
i can see where you all are coming from, however i have a few arguments. i in no way defend the way they have been hiding the wiretaps, but do not see how your essential freedoms are being taken away whatsoever. we are more free today to speak freely about anything we want, and for god's sake, even illegal immigrants are allowed to protest a government that they don't even respect. i really don't think the government is using the wiretaps to become a "big brother" and America never will and cannot ever become something like 1984. Although some of you may not see it as a threat, our government finds a great interest in the direct threats we have concerning terrorism. I know it's difficult, but we have to place a bit of trust in our government system.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 09:26 AM
i can see where you all are coming from, however i have a few arguments. i in no way defend the way they have been hiding the wiretaps, but do not see how your essential freedoms are being taken away whatsoever. we are more free today to speak freely about anything we want, and for god's sake, even illegal immigrants are allowed to protest a government that they don't even respect. i really don't think the government is using the wiretaps to become a "big brother" and America never will and cannot ever become something like 1984. Although some of you may not see it as a threat, our government finds a great interest in the direct threats we have concerning terrorism. I know it's difficult, but we have to place a bit of trust in our government system.

the government, aside from actually recording conversations, keeps a database of the numbers--your and the person to whom you made the call. there is a company, whose name i cannot recall, with which the NSA has a contract with. this company can take these numbers, cross check them with social security numbers, and find out a multitude of information about you i.e. what youve bought, medical records, etc. this, my friend, is a GROSS violation of an essential freedom-privacy.

pa8605
05-14-2006, 10:15 AM
Ok, this is already getting ridiculous. "Wiretaps" are a violation of privacy. Collecting phone records, a completely different thing, is not. The government uses data mining to establish pattens in who people are calling. They don't record everyone's conversation. And they don't use names and social security numbers and all that unless they feel that there is a security risk, in which case they will look up the number. IF YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING WORRY ABOUT.

I assume they didn't report this at first for 2 reasons:
1) If they said "hey, we are going to start collecting Verizon, SBC, and Cingular phone records", do you think that terrorists would use any of those providers? Absolutely not. Therefore making the whole operation irrelevant.

2) They didn't want people who don't understand to start an uproar like what is starting to happen now. It is perfectly ok, and they knew it. If they wanted to keep classified, thats thier business.

And once again, I'd like to stress that if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. If you are a terrorist, I hope this program puts you away.:biggrin:

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 10:47 AM
this is going to be fun.

Ok, this is already getting ridiculous. "Wiretaps" are a violation of privacy. Collecting phone records, a completely different thing, is not. The government uses data mining to establish pattens in who people are calling. They don't record everyone's conversation. And they don't use names and social security numbers and all that unless they feel that there is a security risk, in which case they will look up the number. IF YOU AREN'T DOING ANYTHING WRONG, YOU HAVE NOTHING WORRY ABOUT.

you know what? i have absolutly nothing to do with terrorist activities. dont tap my phone, and dont record the numbers i call. it is a gross violation of my fright to privacy. i dont have anything to hide in my home either: should they come and install a camera so that they can make sure i am not a terrorist? NO! the fact is that as citizens of this country, we are entitled to privacy. and the argument that just because i dont plan to blow up a building, i have nothing to hide, so listening to my personal calls if ok is completly absurd.



I assume they didn't report this at first for 2 reasons:
1) If they said "hey, we are going to start collecting Verizon, SBC, and Cingular phone records", do you think that terrorists would use any of those providers? Absolutely not. Therefore making the whole operation irrelevant.

do you really think terrorists living in the US take their motorolla razr out of their pocket and give osama a quick call? of course not! they knew even beforehand how unbelievably easy it would be to monitor a call.


2) They didn't want people who don't understand to start an uproar like what is starting to happen now. It is perfectly ok, and they knew it. If they wanted to keep classified, thats thier business.

people who dont understand? oh, yes, that silly insignificant division of american people (270 million people) whose phone records could be seized. we understand perfectly. wanna know the reason they didnt release this? because it is ILLEGAL! news flash: the government engages in ILLEGAL ACTIVITY! in addition, people who DO understand the matter, and have an ounce of sense about civil liberties and freedoms guaranteed by, whats that again, oh yeah, the fourth amendment.



And once again, I'd like to stress that if you aren't doing anything wrong then you have nothing to worry about. If you are a terrorist, I hope this program puts you away.:biggrin:

and once again, id like to rebut this absurd argument. did you know that when the wire tapping scandel finally came out, not one of the thousands of ILLEGAL (yes, illegal) wire taps lead to a conviction? so what are we doing here? we are completly trampling on the constitution.

pa8605
05-14-2006, 11:02 AM
My only response to that is that I still don't see why people give a shit if thier phone records (NOT conversations) are being run through a computer to see if they are calling terrorists. I certainly don't give a shit. Now, if they were recording my conversations it would be an entirely different story. But they aren't because you have to have a warrant for that. And if I accidently call a terrorist and the NSA wants to tap my phone to make sure I'm not one, then more power to them because they are making the country safer.

I think people are just looking for things to criticize Bush about. Its sick. This is not that big of a deal people. Your privacy is not being compromised. And if you still have a problem with it, then just switch phone companies cause not all of them are participating.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 11:07 AM
My only response to that is that I still don't see why people give a shit if thier phone records (NOT conversations) are being run through a computer to see if they are calling terrorists. I certainly don't give a shit. Now, if they were recording my conversations it would be an entirely different story. But they aren't because you have to have a warrant for that. And if I accidently call a terrorist and the NSA wants to tap my phone to make sure I'm not one, then more power to them because they are making the country safer.

but heres the thing--actual conversations HAVE been recorded, and even the phone numbers they keep can hold a plethora of information about individuals.

I think people are just looking for things to criticize Bush about. Its sick. This is not that big of a deal people. Your privacy is not being compromised. And if you still have a problem with it, then just switch phone companies cause not all of them are participating.

we dont need more things to criticize him for--we have a long list. this is just a travisty in american history (eh, its one of).

my privacy is being compromised, as is yours, and every american's

pa8605
05-14-2006, 11:12 AM
but heres the thing--actual conversations HAVE been recorded, and even the phone numbers they keep can hold a plethora of information about individuals.

Give me some evidence of innocent people having thier conversations recorded and I'll be behind you 100%.

my privacy is being compromised, as is yours, and every american's

I disagree, but again, if you can show me the evidence of that this is happening unjustly, then you win the arguement.

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 12:18 PM
from the beginning of the digital phone age, your phone calls have been recorded digitally. no one is tapping into those files, except when need be, i.e. emergency or terrorism...i am sick of people that have a complete distrust for the government only because they dislike the president. Oh, and by the way, the NSA wiretaps were brought forth and implimented by Bill Clinton during his adminstration. It was called the "Echelon" program. Millions and millions of communications data files were logged for security purposes. So i think you leftists need to quit complaining because your people are the ones who initially sought to fix a REAL danger.

pa8605
05-14-2006, 12:27 PM
Indeed.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 12:41 PM
Give me some evidence of innocent people having thier conversations recorded and I'll be behind you 100%.



I disagree, but again, if you can show me the evidence of that this is happening unjustly, then you win the arguement.


evidence. ok, here it is:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/05/14/news/hayden.php


Vice president argued for domestic wiretapping without warrants




if you wire tap without a warrent, it is illegal, which is also unjust.

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 12:47 PM
Turns out that Bill Clinton actual signed an executive order in 1995 that states that the government can seize any material they deem harmful to the citizens of the United States without a warrant.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 12:50 PM
Turns out that Bill Clinton actual signed an executive order in 1995 that states that the government can seize any material they deem harmful to the citizens of the United States without a warrant.

unfortunatly, the bush administration has taken this specific order which clinton used, and is generalizing it so that they may seize phone records and conversations from millions of americans. did clinton seize records from millions? i dont think so.

p.s. see above "evidence"

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:01 PM
YES HE DID. don't be naive here. The only thing bush allowed was the "unwarranted" tapping of an American resident (not necessarily a citizen) as long as it was contacting an al-Qaeda contact. The argument you are trying to make is the previously mentioned program devised by Bill Clinton. The NSA and FBI are the organizations doing the wire tapping and bugging. If you know anything about how a bureaucracy works, you know that george bush cannot simply shut down a previously engaged program that has to do with national security. Everyone is just looking for an excuse to blame the bush administration for everything. Dick Cheney was simply defending the program claiming that it has saved thousands of lives and even uncovered Iyman Faris' plan to destroy the brooklyn bridge and another place in britain. And finally, Bush, and Clinton for that matter, both briefed the Senate/Congressional committees concerning the issue, half of which are democrats (which i'll assume you could have voted for) and these Congressmen and women decided to withhold this information from the floor until the New York Times illegally (hmm, ironic?) obtained the information pertaining to the Taps. It just so happens that just because you don't appreciate George Bush being president, he appreciates you being an American and wants to protect you from an attack on this country.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 01:05 PM
The only thing bush allowed was the "unwarranted" tapping of an American resident

thank you for proving my point. it is UNWARRANTED! if the NSA were to go through proper channels, i.e. getting a court order by presenting sufficient evidence that would lead a court to believe that the warrent was necessary, then by all means, tap the person. but by doing it UNWARRANTED! the bush administration has allowed for illegal tapping on ANYONE! and this, my friend, is immoral, unethical, and above all else, illegal.

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:06 PM
and the argument, err myth, that you're basing this on is that George Bush is violating the law by hiding this information. Wrong. The ability to conduct surveillance without a warrant has been the law of the land for nearly 30 years. In 2002, the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review ruled (as did other courts) that "the president did have the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain intelligence information." So this has been proven legal indeed, and the only people that can be held liable for any illegal activity are those that brought this story to the headlines.

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:09 PM
thank you for proving my point. it is UNWARRANTED! if the NSA were to go through proper channels, i.e. getting a court order by presenting sufficient evidence that would lead a court to believe that the warrent was necessary, then by all means, tap the person. but by doing it UNWARRANTED! the bush administration has allowed for illegal tapping on ANYONE! and this, my friend, is immoral, unethical, and above all else, illegal.

haha nice try. did i not say that bill clinton implimented the unwarranted taps, and they existed long before him. Oh and by the way unwarranted means "without a warrant." some people.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 01:10 PM
and the argument, err myth, that you're basing this on is that George Bush is violating the law by hiding this information. Wrong. The ability to conduct surveillance without a warrant has been the law of the land for nearly 30 years. In 2002, the Federal Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review ruled (as did other courts) that "the president did have the inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain intelligence information." So this has been proven legal indeed, and the only people that can be held liable for any illegal activity are those that brought this story to the headlines.

i dont know the specifics of this law, however, is it made to cover wire tapping millions of americans?

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:13 PM
You have to understand that your phone calls have always been "tapped," meaning they were recorded by your phone companies and kept away in case of an emergency. The government has no need and does not go into these databases unless they have good reason. Do you honestly think they have 100,000+ trained people sitting in some NSA basement listening to every call that every american makes during the day? come on.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 01:14 PM
You have to understand that your phone calls have always been "tapped," meaning they were recorded by your phone companies and kept away in case of an emergency. The government has no need and does not go into these databases unless they have good reason. Do you honestly think they have 100,000+ trained people sitting in some NSA basement listening to every call that every american makes during the day. come on.

no, i realize that they dont listen to every one, but it is still a gross violation of privacy

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:17 PM
GIVE ME A BREAK! First of all, there is no mention of privacy under the constitution. secondly, explain to me how it is only now an invasion of privacy when it's been happening for 30+ years. and claiming ignorance is a poor argument.

miniaturegough
05-14-2006, 01:28 PM
However i can't blame you for how you think. you do live in the bronx and your high school i'm assuming feeds you with anti-bush jargon all day. It's funny that a year and one day in between birthdays can make such a difference. grow up.

pa8605
05-14-2006, 01:40 PM
You hit the nail right on the head minigough.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 02:49 PM
However i can't blame you for how you think. you do live in the bronx and your high school i'm assuming feeds you with anti-bush jargon all day. It's funny that a year and one day in between birthdays can make such a difference. grow up.

sorry all. im deleting this post

he who rocks
05-14-2006, 03:07 PM
matt, sounds like you need a little back up, sorry i was missing.

its wrong. doesnt matter how long theyve been doin it or whos doing it. its wrong. its trampling the constitution whether it says anything about phones at all in the document. i dont care who does it its still wrong.

"explain to me how it is only now an invasion of privacy when it's been happening for 30+ years." ok, its a 30 year old invasion of privacy, there you have it.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 03:29 PM
matt, sounds like you need a little back up, sorry i was missing.

its wrong. doesnt matter how long theyve been doin it or whos doing it. its wrong. its trampling the constitution whether it says anything about phones at all in the document. i dont care who does it its still wrong.

"explain to me how it is only now an invasion of privacy when it's been happening for 30+ years." ok, its a 30 year old invasion of privacy, there you have it.

indeed. thanks. now for the rest of my leftist crew!:lol:

Bryan
05-14-2006, 06:47 PM
hey y'all...keep this civil and far away from personal attacks... you know our policy.

onesuiteworld
05-14-2006, 07:05 PM
hey y'all...keep this civil and far away from personal attacks... you know our policy.

sorry about that...all has been resolved though

he who rocks
05-14-2006, 08:47 PM
i like music

Dave L
05-15-2006, 02:25 AM
hey y'all...keep this civil and far away from personal attacks... you know our policy.

Thankyou Bryan. Discussions regarding politics always seem to highlight all that makes us different and unique in our beliefs and opinions. While it's a positive to be cognizant that others share different opinions, its more important to responsibly accept it. We are not the politicians here, merely citizens and fans. This is an interactive fan forum however and not political debate forum. This being said, I was reluctant to rekindle the original DMB and politics thread but it had/has some merit when topics relate to the band. The goal was to be able to understand what makes us different and why and subsequently grow from it and strengthen the community, not slide the slippery slope.
Let's take the high road here, everyone. Regardless of wether the government is watching or not, the mods are. I really don't want to have to close these threads.:feelbette

spoonInspoon
05-18-2006, 07:45 PM
Yeah if anything thankyou Mods for not closing anythreads having to do with these issues... It can get crazy, but i think we all respect one -another either way. I just happen to have an interest in crooked politics, I believe it is a catalyst to many of the problems wheater economic or what-not we face in America and around the world. I think its cool and i like to read into people's opinions about these issues. I also think Dave Matthews kind of shares belief on some of these issues when we start talking about a more "peaceful America" so thats why you can understand why we talk about these things here on WDS.I mean BY no means do I wanna wanna come off as the "hippy left-wing" stereotyped DMB fan... It's just something through out my life i have had an interest in and maybe a few DMB songs has fueled my inspiration a little bit as someone who is pitching in that field

onesuiteworld
05-18-2006, 07:47 PM
its quite obvious that dave is a big fat left wing hippie liberal:lol:

MikeyCarson
05-24-2006, 10:59 PM
Not that politics are involved with this....but....think about this:

1: I subscribe to a Satellite Radio service
2: Each radio has it's own ID number
3: Once I give the company my ID number and pay their fee....I get the signal from their satellite
4: A signal is beamed down from space to where ever my radio is based on the fact that my radio has the ID number I gave the company
4: so, provided my radio is on.... I get the signal that is beamed down from that satellite
5: With that said...if I were to leave my radio on 24 hours a day 7 days a week my satellite radio company knows where I'm at (or at least my radio) every moment of every day. :confused:

Now if my satellite radio company can keep tabs on me like that what makes you think the government can't/isn't?!?!?!?!